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The Price Of Denial (17 November 2009)

Written by TVSA Team from the blog 3rd Degree on 16 Nov 2009
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On 3rd Degree on Tuesday (17 November, 2009):

Episode Title: The Price Of Denial
Broadcast date: 17 November 2009
Teaser ...

Ten years ago, the seeds were sown for one of the deepest human tragedies of post-apartheid South Africa. The seeds were sown by none other than our very own president and his minister of health.

Together, President Thabo Mbeki and Dr Manto Tshabalala-Msimang questioned the scientific truth that a sexually-transmitted virus caused AIDS. It was nothing less than state-sponsored AIDS denialism.

If the link was denied, one could overlook the behavioural patterns that fuel the spread of HIV. If the link wasn’t proven, then there was no need to roll out anti-HIV medicine.

The two leaders courted denialists and quacks from around the world, delaying the speedy roll-out of proven treatment, while death swept through our cities, villages and townships.

Scientists say that well over 330 000 people died from AIDS-related illnesses during the Mbeki era - some of these deaths could have been prevented by the timely and purposeful roll-out of life-prolonging anti-retrovirals.

But it’s not only scientists who knew the truth about anti-retroviral therapy. This Tuesday, 3rd Degree tells the personal stories of mothers and children who came to understand that denial was no way to treat the virus that ripped their lives apart.

To this day, ordinary people count the cost in their own lives of policy mistakes and the systematic undermining of the health sector during the Mbeki years.

3rd Degree asks: should Thabo Mbeki and his administration be charged with genocide?

3rd Degree is on e.tv on Tuesdays at 21h30.

Tags: Other Teasers

96 Comments

realist
16 Nov 2009 07:09

This Debra is just a drama queen. Did anyone watch when she interviewed the department of housing officials? She was pathetic. They were professional, factual and to the point.

calamity
16 Nov 2009 07:23

She got the ASA president to admit that he was lying and if that makes her a drama queen oh well!

realist
16 Nov 2009 07:50

She got the ASA president to admit that he was lying and if that makes her a drama queen oh well!
It was at the news conference when ASA president admitted to his lies. Debra was just dramatizing what was already known to the public. She is still a drama queen.

calamity
16 Nov 2009 08:35

This is just not worth a reply. People are entitled to their own opinions.

One and Only
16 Nov 2009 08:51

3rd Degree asks: should Thabo Mbeki and his administration be charged with genocide?

The question should be: Should the ANC be charged with genocide?

The whole ANC is responsible for this, Mbeki was not making decisions on his own and if he was a dictator that they make him to be now it was gonna be difficult for the ANC to recall him as he was not reporting to them.

maddie
16 Nov 2009 09:06

in as much as ARVs r helping people with HIV to live longer me thinks that Pharmeceutical companies are minting money out of this developing countries(which has the highest rate as compared to other developed countries).

why have they reduced the prices of other drugs but not ARVs.

If these drugs are really helping people then why aren't they doing more research to find a cure:
my take is that if they find a cure that is if they haven't find any, that will mean bye bye to all the profit they're making and we all know they will not risk that.

check the stats; let's face it people mostly dying of this disease are Africans, do u think these European pharmaceutical mafakas care about us, nop I don't think so that is why they would use institutions like TAC to push government into spending more money on their drugs.

I don't think it's partly Mbeki's fault that people died of AIDS, we all know what we should do to avoid being infected with the exception of those who have been infected by rape and other accidents.

goldii
16 Nov 2009 10:20

check the stats; let's face it people mostly dying of this disease are Africans, do u think these European pharmaceutical mafakas care about us, nop I don't think so that is why they would use institutions like TAC to push government into spending more money on their drugs.

Then its time for Africans to stop acting like they know it all and using so called "African culture "to get themselves into a fix. Then turn to Europe with their begging bowls asking for help and expecting them to roll over and hand out their hard earn cash , drugs , whatever willy nilly.

They do not have to supply the drugs and Africa has not come up with a single ARV and I doubt they will be able to come out with the cure.

Talk about shiting under a tree. The HIV virus is found in primates. Guess who eats primates, certainly not the Europeans.

Africa needs to get over itself the world does not revolve around them.

Ms personality
16 Nov 2009 10:29

i don't think any one should be charged , as the people know what should be done to decrease the spread of the diesease and i also feel the leaders have not done enough to stop the so called diesease because if there is something like ARV's that can slow down AIDs it makes it obvias that there can be a cure ....thay just won't be b given out now as certain people are making profit with the lifes of African people

i don't undertand why these ARV's have to be somehow dangerous to the life of people ( once on ARV's it means taking them for the rest of your life if you don't you die ) i mean seriously now why can't they come up with something that you have to dose maybe for 6mnths and then u'l be ok............in that case we will not lose many lives out of this desease there won't be people quiting the medication and putting their lifes at high risk

Ms personality
16 Nov 2009 10:42

Then its time for Africans to stop acting like they know it all and using so called "African culture "to get themselves into a fix

@Goldii u know you have good point there , but if only our same African nurses or whoever comes up with the idea of the "African mixture will damage the Lungs and cuase many other damages" i mean if they can stop teaching the people that i am sure there can be a difference , for Goodness sake our khokhos grew up ngamayeza y can't it be trustred now

maddie
16 Nov 2009 11:05

while charging Mbeki with genocide they might as well charge SAB for all deaths caused by drinking and driving

Mathaz
16 Nov 2009 11:32

3rd Degree asks: should Thabo Mbeki and his administration be charged with genocide? Dr Aaron Motsoaledi even went further to blame the old administration for the HIV/AIDS issue, it does not make sense to me why the new ANC would lame the old one. My understanding is that the National Working Committee of the ANC which has about 20 members (stand to be corrected) makes up policies. Clearly Mbeki and Manto are not to be blamed for the late roll out of ARVs. Mbeki did not want to roll them out because the ARVs that were given were third grade and were discarded overseas so why should we as Africans would want to take something that would kill us? We all know about the major side effects that those pills have.

Ten years ago, the seeds were sown for one of the deepest human tragedies of post-apartheid South Africa. The seeds were sown by none other than our very own president and his minister of health. I beg to differ on that one, when the ANC took over, the National Party government did not want to promote/inform and educate black people about the HI virus so NO Mbeki and the ANC (OLD AND NEW) government are not to be blamed.

realist
16 Nov 2009 11:38

@ goldii
Well Said

T.O
17 Nov 2009 12:16

Should Mbeki alone be blamed as an individual or should the entire presidency be blamed. who were his adviosers. who were the researchers. were these his opinion or was some one planting ideas on his head. As far as i'm concerned (TSHAWE) he is an economist not a health practitioner.

is it necesary for us to go back there and waiste millions of money appointing commision of enquiry and charge THABO. Can't we that money for sothing else instead of opening old wounds. is he directly responsible for the so called Genocide or was it a policy or diplomacy gone wrong.

Whatever- South African will never change-

tizoz
17 Nov 2009 18:21

Reply from: maddie 11/16/2009 5:05:56 PM

while charging Mbeki with genocide they might as well charge SAB for all deaths caused by drinking and driving

THANKS MADDIE this Mbeki thing is so so so so not right, how many people with access to ARV's die because they are not given the right medication. there is all sorts of complications and side effects that comes with ARV's that no one seems to focus on. so people must not be in DENIAL and think that ARV's are the only solution, yes if they are administered properly they will help.

charging Mbeki should be a least of the problem but teaching people properly about living with HIV Aids should be a main priority seeing that we have such a high percantage of people living with the virus.

once again ARV's are not the only solution to the problem but people should learn to live with infected people withought stigmatising them.......

Mathaz
18 Nov 2009 09:28

Did not intentionally watch the show, i was rather shocked and impressed by Malema's support for Mbeki with regards to this issue. 3rd Degree is not a bad show but it's slowing losing its credibility. There are so many issues to investigate like the Eskom and AMSCOR saga but they deliberately choose to focus on other issues, i thought that it's main goal was to investigate matters that are currently hot on everyone's lips. Deborah please up your game.

maddie
18 Nov 2009 09:41

it's so ironic that every good thing achieved during Mbeki's tenure was an ANC collective and bad things it's Mbeki's fault.

If they're not blaming Apartheid, then Mbeki when will this blaming stop.

Mina am sick and tired of this BS, YOU GET WHAT YOU VOTED FOR, PEOPLE SHOULD STOP MOANING

As for Zuma yena, the less said about him the better. I can't take him seriously when it comes AIDS.

tizoz
18 Nov 2009 10:03

I say Charge Pres Zuma, Bheki Cele, Nathi Mthetwa and Fikile Mbalula for this shoot to kill *bleep!*! "innocent people are going to die so get used to it..." my word and they turn around and claim Genocide.....bull!

Cande
18 Nov 2009 10:08

eish its sad that innocent souls had to be lost due to lack of proper planning, and politics... Mr Motsoaledi needs to do something and stop blaming Mbeki because its all in the past now, he needs to do something FAST

Mathaz
18 Nov 2009 10:30

@tizoz....I feel you, Mbalula is not even apologetic about the innocent people being caught up in the cross fire statement. Yes the police need more fire power but if innocent people are to lose their lives just like that, it just does not make sense. Shame the poor cop who shot the 3 year old is still in jail whilst he was given the authority to shoot to kill.

fruity
18 Nov 2009 10:34

it's so ironic that every good thing achieved during Mbeki's tenure was an ANC collective and bad things it's Mbeki's fault. so true hey!

maddie
18 Nov 2009 10:44

this country is led by a bunch of morons who do not have a clue as to how to run a civilized country like SA.

i was working for a private sector before and am not saying there weren't mistakes but at least we had direction, and now am working for government, local to be exact and trust me the top people don't know what they're doing, they're busy involved in political battles and forgetting to deliver basic services to the poor.

this thing of deploying cadres has never worked and it will never work, imagine being appointed a Director General for health and u do not have any medical background whatsover and you lead professional doctors.

for those who want to hopeful about this country good for you, am also hopeful under the circumstances, change has to start from top and I don't c Zuma firing his Comrades after all the support they gave him

GML
18 Nov 2009 11:27

The ANC as a collective know very well that no decision can be implemented without it being agreed upon in parliament.

If Mbeki is to blame for the late roll out of ARV's then the whole lot of Parliamentarians should be blamed as well because it's their job to debate these issues and approve them in Parliament.

Zuma himself was an MP during Mbeki Era. so was Motlante, so were so many other politicians who are now shifting blame (Pandor, Sisulu, Manuel)

A lot of them should also be blamed/charged for genocide....

It's totally ridiculous that all progress made during Mbeki's era is put aside adn all negatives are being given attention.

I personally think Mbeki did well as far as our Economy is concerned. It took quite some time for SA to be affected by the recession- Even when it hit us it was not as bad as it was for Asia, America and Europe. Yes, it bad, but not as bad when compared to other countries

maddie
18 Nov 2009 11:39

the sooner people realize that politics is just a game the better.

kuyadlalwa apha the sad part is that kudlalwa ngempilo zabantu(excuse my zulu)

Tholi
18 Nov 2009 12:12

<<Shame the poor cop who shot the 3 year old is still in jail whilst he was given the authority to shoot to kill.>>
He was never given the authority to shoot and kill children but CRIMINALS!

wow Mbheki is a lucky bastard huh! everyone here seems to be on his side.

maddie
18 Nov 2009 12:35

wow Mbheki is a lucky bastard huh! everyone here seems to be on his side.

@Tholi

We're not on Mbeki's side we're just trying to point out few facts

baby e
18 Nov 2009 12:52

Hey Politics mathata

realist
18 Nov 2009 13:46

The ANC as a collective know very well that no decision can be implemented without it being agreed upon in parliament.
Right there lies the problem. Those deployed are there to rubber stamp what ever was decided on their national conference.

Zuma himself was an MP during Mbeki Era. so was Motlante,
Motlante was the SG during Mbeki era. Not that he would have made any difference for that matter anyway.

On the shoot to kill issue. Can someone give statistics of how many innocent people were shot by criminals as opposed to the police? What I mean is how many innocent people were shot by police before the shoot to kill statement and how many innocent people by criminals when there was no shoot to kill statement.

If the statistics says many innocent people were shot by criminals as opposed to the police then this regime is correct in saying the police must shoot to kill. In any event either way there will always be collateral damage when police are in pursuit of criminals and they are forced to shoot to kill.

tizoz
18 Nov 2009 13:59

well the past couple of people that they have killed didnt pose any danger to them according to the reports?

arent they supposed to do whatever it takes to arrest the "criminals" failing that and only if their lives are in danger they can then shoot.

At the same time if a person is a "criminal" you dont kill them as they need to answer for what they did hence there is a justice system? Remember you are innocent until proven guilty?? which in this case the kid was def innocent.......

goldii
18 Nov 2009 14:05

@realist

In any event either way there will always be collateral damage when police are in pursuit of criminals and they are forced to shoot to kill.

As the saying goes "one has to break a few eggs to make an omlete". Criminals have constitutional right to kill innocent people, yet cops are given a hard time for trying to protect innocent people.

Can someone give statistics of how many innocent people were shot by criminals as opposed to the police? What I mean is how many innocent people were shot by police before the shoot to kill statement and how many innocent people by criminals when there was no shoot to kill statement.

I would love to hear a answer to this one too.

Tholi
18 Nov 2009 14:05

<<Zuma himself was an MP during Mbeki Era >>
U mean before or after Mbheki fired him?

lady gaga
18 Nov 2009 14:10

im still young for this.

GML
18 Nov 2009 14:16

@Tholi: He was Mbeki's deputy.....

One and Only
18 Nov 2009 14:20

In any event either way there will always be collateral damage when police are in pursuit of criminals and they are forced to shoot to kill.
I hope that you would also understand better and accept this statement when it is your family member involved.

It's also funny that this statement also applies to people protesting against poor service delivery.

realist
18 Nov 2009 14:22

arent they supposed to do whatever it takes to arrest the "criminals" failing that and only if their lives are in danger they can then shoot.
That is precisely what section 49 is saying. Remember due to the killing of police and innocent people, the regime decided that enough is enough hence shoot to kill statement which btw I fully support.

I still want to know how many innocent people were shot by police when this shoot to kill was first pronounced as opposed when there was no shoot to kill. That goes to the criminals as well.

At the same time if a person is a "criminal" you dont kill them as they need to answer for what they did hence there is a justice system? Remember you are innocent until proven guilty??
If the criminal is shooting back at the police, what must they do to defend themselves?

If the criminal did not resist any arrest and did not pose any danger to the police or the society he will be given the opportunity to present their case when arrested. The problem with criminals is they always run away from the justice system.

which in this case the kid was def innocent.......
Hence the person who did that was arrested.

realist
18 Nov 2009 14:25

I hope that you would also understand better and accept this statement when it is your family member involved.
What difference would that make?

realist
18 Nov 2009 14:53

As the saying goes "one has to break a few eggs to make an omlete". Criminals have constitutional right to kill innocent people, yet cops are given a hard time for trying to protect innocent people.
Does anyone have difficulty with this statement?

tizoz
18 Nov 2009 14:55

which in this case the kid was def innocent.......
Hence the person who did that was arrested.

well they were excercising their right to shoot to kill isn't that so? why are they then arrested for doing what they were told they could do?

That is precisely what section 49 is saying. Remember due to the killing of police and innocent people, the regime decided that enough is enough hence shoot to kill statement which btw I fully support.

so are you saying fight fire with fire, if that is the case then we might as well allow "kangaroo courts" to do whatever they want because we are tired of criminals? Any other situation needs to be carefully controlled and to have a senior member of Govt say well expect to die while they claim to protect you? tell me that makes sense, to me it dont!

If the criminal is shooting back at the police, what must they do to defend themselves?

as far as I know the so called PTA hijackers were not shooting back and so is the durban woman and the latest kid.

all these are just stupid blunders that no one seems to want to take responsibility for. if this needs to be implememnted it does need to be carefully controlled, you cannot give every tom dick and harry the right to shoot at anything infront of them.

Remember apartheid police force were given the same right to shoot to kill people who had stones no guns, did that make things right, no it ddnt they were asked to come forward and apologise.

bottom line is the shoot to kill pilicy needs work if it needs to be implemented.

Tholi
18 Nov 2009 15:02

<<well they were excercising their right to shoot to kill isn't that so? why are they then arrested for doing what they were told they could do? >>

they were not told to kill kids and innocent people but CRIMINALS.!
THAT IS WHY HE'S ARRESTED!!!

One and Only
18 Nov 2009 15:02

The shoot to kill statement was supposed to be an internal and private matter within the police department. We as public don't need to know that we gonna be killed when criminal are persuated.

I remember that the same guy who issued this statement also issued a statement some time ago that he has banned SA Roadlink and assured us we'll never see it in operation ever again.

It wouldn't make a difference Realist because black people don't mind losing a child as long as Fikile Mbalula or some minister will visit the family, donate the casket, pay for other funeral arrangements and invite journalist so the funeral can be televised on SABC1.

realist
18 Nov 2009 15:08

If a referendum was to be held tomorrow about the death penalty or shoot to kill statement, what do you think the verdict will be?

as far as I know the so called PTA hijackers were not shooting back and so is the durban woman and the latest kid.
Since you remember what the police did, would you also care to give the innocent people that were shot by criminals?

Remember apartheid police force were given the same right to shoot to kill people who had stones no guns, did that make things right, no it ddnt they were asked to come forward and apologise.
If a referendum was to be held tomorrow about the death penalty or shoot to kill statement, what do you think the verdict will be?

Since you remember what the police did, would you also care to give the innocent people that were shot by criminals?

If they did not come forward to apologize, what do you think would have happened to them?

What do you think if the Pretoria bomber did not come and apologize, what would have happened to him?

What I’m highlighting here is your selective memory. State all the facts from both sides.

Mathaz
18 Nov 2009 15:09

My understanding is that police should not under any circumstance shoot to kill but shoot to disarm the criminal. I'm having a MAJOR problem with the shoot to kill statement because cops are so trigger happy nowadays a day does not pass by without the police killing suspected criminals. To say that inncocent lives will be lost and feel okay with it, is just reckless rhetoric. It's not the criminials' fault that their rights are protected by the consitution. Cyril Ramaphos, Roelf Meyer and the like should have seen that our consitution and the system favours criminals.

Can someone give statistics of how many innocent people were shot by criminals as opposed to the police? What I mean is how many innocent people were shot by police before the shoot to kill statement and how many innocent people by criminals when there was no shoot to kill statement. The last time i checked Bheki Cele was refusing to release crime statistics. Yes something needs to be done but shooting to kill does not in anyway help to reduce our crime rate.

realist
18 Nov 2009 15:11

It wouldn't make a difference Realist because black people don't mind losing a child
If it was white, what difference would it have made?

realist
18 Nov 2009 15:17

The last time i checked Bheki Cele was refusing to release crime statistics.
I am not interested in crime stats, I want to know before the shoot to kill statement how many innocent lives were lost either from the police or from the criminals and how many innocent lives were lost after the shoot to kill statement was pronounced. Please do not give me the media hype answers.

Mathaz
18 Nov 2009 15:26

@realist....The Institute of Security Studies will help you with the stats you require but i doubt if Bheki Cele would give accurate statistics with the number of people shot by police versus the number of people shot by criminals.

Ever since the shoot to kill statement, the police have been reckless and killing innocent people that's what i know and that's what matters to me.

One and Only
18 Nov 2009 15:27

Wait until Bheki Cele & Co are fired from the ANC and then we'll be told that the ANC had nothing to do with this statement, it was Bheki Cele's decision alone.

These are the statements that should also be used when campaining for votes during election times.

The act has been enabled and any Tom, Dick and Harry like myself have no choice but to live with the consequences.

My piece of advice would be that the next time one sees a police must raise their hands and lie down or they shoot you thinking you were going to shoot them.

While at it you might as well stay home for your own safety before you become part of the eggs for an omelette.

cleve
18 Nov 2009 15:29

Shoot to kill is just wrong, policew are supposed to protect people and not kill. do these laws apply in other countries? is that why they are succesful in fighting crime?

spice
18 Nov 2009 15:32

Haaaaaaaaaaai lena youre going off topic ,I want to know when mbeki is going to jail finish and klaaaaaaaaaar

mathata
18 Nov 2009 15:33

this ppl we vote for them.once they get what they want they dont care,other countrys you take ARV aslong you are HIV,but in our country you kiss your coffin first n you get ARV,what the F* is that?

why are we paying TAx?for them to travel,eat steak,wear expensive suit,it pains me with this issue they dont care .

Botswana is fighting this Aids back,they try all the best to protect their ppl.

im sorry to say this,Black ppl will never think like white ppl,we made them who they are today ,n they forget about us,its OK ,i dont know how they sleep at night?

realist
18 Nov 2009 15:33

Ever since the shoot to kill statement, the police have been reckless and killing innocent people that's what i know and that's what matters to me.
By implication the criminals have been careful in killing the innocent and it does not matter to you?

Wait until Bheki Cele & Co are fired from the ANC and then we'll be told that the ANC had nothing to do with this statement, it was Bheki Cele's decision alone.
That is politics at its best.

These are the statements that should also be used when campaining for votes during election times.
That is what was promised before the election.

Tholi
18 Nov 2009 15:33

@Spice, u and me both.

cleve
18 Nov 2009 15:36

kwa kwa kwa kwa yena yedwa

Mathaz
18 Nov 2009 15:41

By implication the criminals have been careful in killing the innocent and it does not matter to you? Of course it matters but the police are supposed to PROTECT us, they should know better and act responsibly and within the law and what i know, the constitution needs to be changed first before they should shoot to kill. "Shoot to kill" will not in any way deter criminals but would worsen the situation, more cops are so going to lose their lives, innocent people (think about the 3 year old), suspected criminals and actual criminals.

tizoz
18 Nov 2009 15:42

I am not interested in crime stats, I want to know before the shoot to kill statement how many innocent lives were lost either from the police or from the criminals and how many innocent lives were lost after the shoot to kill statement was pronounced. Please do not give me the media hype answers.

well crime stats would help indicate how many people have died due to crime? dont you think realist?

your argument is getting emotional and the bottom line is we will remember if the police fucked up, xcuse my language. if they were to mistake the president or any other senior govnt member for a criminal would that be excused? I dont think so!

Best-Achiever
18 Nov 2009 15:44

i feel sorry fr TM ... out of all the good he did for SA this is the Thank you he is gettig after being fired ...nc nc nc nc talk about being kicked when you are down

lady gaga
18 Nov 2009 15:44

mathata o skhokho ngwana, i just showed ur reply to my colleagues, shooo gal!!.....lol

Tholi
18 Nov 2009 15:48

<<out of all the good he did for SA this is the Thank you he is gettig after being fired>>

i wonder what good u talking about!

GML
18 Nov 2009 15:51

Personally I think the shoot to kill thing was a good idea.

however, if a policeman cannot differentiate between a child and an adult I have a problem with it.

The incident with that child is unforgivable.

How possible is it that they did not see that that was a child
They said they thought he was carrying a gun- Even so surely his hands were not a big as an adults hands were they?
Surely his body did not resemble that of an adult did it? They just opened fire without being sure- it's not like they were being attacked or anything

How can they fail to differentiate a child from an adult? The cops got excited and were irresponsible

Sslave
18 Nov 2009 15:55

This price of denial thingy e serious mos

Cande
18 Nov 2009 15:55

t wouldn't make a difference Realist because black people don't mind losing a child as long as Fikile Mbalula or some minister will visit the family, donate the casket, pay for other funeral arrangements and invite journalist so the funeral can be televised on SABC1.>>>>>>>>>>>>LMAO!!!

tizoz
18 Nov 2009 16:02

<<out of all the good he did for SA this is the Thank you he is gettig after being fired>>

i wonder what good u talking about!

Well Tholi, if it were according to other comrades and cosatu's of this world this country would have been run like our neighbour state I am not going mention. the sound economic policies and selling South africa to the world is what he did right.

Luksta
18 Nov 2009 16:02

While at it you might as well stay home for your own safety before you become part of the eggs for an omelette.

Hola 1 & O!

Ingenuity
18 Nov 2009 16:09

Surely there must be a noticeable difference between criminals and the police. Criminals are the ones who just shoot to kill. Police should exercise more caution. Deadly force should be used only in extreme circumstances.

GML
18 Nov 2009 16:11

some people dont watch the news or even read newspapers (by newspapers I dont mean tabloids) *sigh*

fruity
18 Nov 2009 16:23

Like one and only, said the shoot to kill statement was supposed to be an internal thing, they were supposed to discuss it at their caucuss(sp) and the public was never supposed to be informed.

The shoot to kill can work, provided checks and balances are put in place before implementing it, we all know that in a house with no rules, people will act anyhow and it makes it hard to differentiate between right and wrong. Policeman should be told in which circumstances they can shoot and if they do not act in accordance with the stipulated conditions, they should be severely reprimanded.

Back to the issue at hand, i agree with the bloggers who says that if Mbeki is to be charged with genocide, so should all the top decision makers in ANC.

The policemen should never forget first and foremost that they are PUBLIC SERVANTS and their duty is to PROTECT AND TO SERVE and that they are accountable to the public. (public accountability).

Again what happened to Batho pele principles?

GML
18 Nov 2009 16:27

@fruity:

You took me right back to politics and Public Management 101 with the batho pele principles in 1st year.. lol

realist
19 Nov 2009 06:34

@ Mathaz
They are not going to change the constitution. They are going to amend section 49 to give police more discretion to use lethal force. The reason for amendment is to clear any ambiguity when it comes to police having to defend themselves.

@ Tizoz
I have asked you a question and you did not respond to it. Here is the question?
If the referendum was to be held today regarding the death penalty and the shoot kill. What would be the outcome? Society has been begging this regime to have the referendum regarding the death penalty and it is not budging.

Of course it matters but the police are supposed to PROTECT us,
How? Please do not be academic with your response but give practical solution.

they should know better and act responsibly and within the law
Show me where they did not act within the law and what happened if they did not act within the law.

Shoot to kill" will not in any way deter criminals but would worsen the situation, more cops are so going to lose their lives, innocent people (think about the 3 year old), suspected criminals and actual criminals.
Again you are being academic. Can you please explain what you have just said practically?

well crime stats would help indicate how many people have died due to crime? dont you think realist?
That would include all the crime that was perpetuated. Like I said I am not interested in those stats. I want to know how many innocent lives have been lost due to shoot to kill statement and how many were lost before the shoot to kill statement. Please let us not beat around the bush about what I am asking.

your argument is getting emotional and the bottom line is we will remember if the police fucked up, xcuse my language.
You know why you will remember that? Because the police are acting within the law and if one mistake is made by the police the media jump on a bandwagon criticizing the police and offering no solution.

Btw, if the police happen to shoot innocent civilians there is the ICD department that investigates what happened. If the police are in the wrong they are fully charged, therefore I do not understand hype around this issue.

Btw, I am not emotional; I am merely stating facts right or wrongly.

fruity
19 Nov 2009 08:15

@fruity:

You took me right back to politics and Public Management 101 with the batho pele principles in 1st year.. lol

Ke Education ya Unisa GML. tl tl tl tl tl...

calamity
19 Nov 2009 08:23

Btw, if the police happen to shoot innocent civilians there is the ICD department that investigates what happened. If the police are in the wrong they are fully charged, therefore I do not understand hype around this issue.

I don't think the issue here is whether the police get charged or not, the fact is that even if the police are charged; it will not bring back all those innocent lives that have been lost.

realist
19 Nov 2009 08:29

it will not bring back all those innocent lives that have been lost.
Granted. Will it also bring back the life of the policeman? Let us not miss the point here, underneath that police uniform the police is wearing is a human being. Let us not also forget that. So, what you are saying is that their lives do not matter?

Mathaz
19 Nov 2009 09:07

Is this shoot to kill policy a Polokwane resolution?

cleve
19 Nov 2009 09:08

Will it also bring back the life of the policeman? Let us not miss the point here, underneath that police uniform the police is wearing is a human being. Let us not also forget that. So, what you are saying is that their lives do not matter?

But Realist being a policeman or a soldier is a choice that you make that you will lay down your life to protect the country and its people. what are the possibilities of me dying behind my desk or a cop dying on duty. That's why these people swear when they assume duty for the first time because they know how dangerous it is to be a cop especially in SA

maddie
19 Nov 2009 09:13

OFF TOPIC

BACK TO GENOCIDE NOW - AIDS

spice
19 Nov 2009 09:22

Yes Genowhateva.Mbheki a ye tronkong I don't care whether di ARV;s were fong kongs or not ,he should have made them accessible to us .his EGo got in the way of the possibility of saving people's lives .him and his side kicks

maddie
19 Nov 2009 09:34

I don't care whether di ARV;s were fong kongs or not ,he should have made them accessible to us .his EGo got in the way of the possibility of saving people's lives .him and his side kicks
@SPICE

Ur hatred from Mbeki is evident in this statement and clouding your judgement, that you would not mind fong kong ARVs.

how would they have saved lives in they were fake, people would have died anyway just like they are dying from other things as well.

even if they prolong people 's lives i foresee a habit of negligence, recklessness and irresponsibility on the part of our people knowing that they'll get free medication and what will that do our coffers.

prevention is better i won't say better than cure because there's no cure for HIV anyway

realist
19 Nov 2009 09:57

Mbeki’s issue is a non starter. It’s not going to happen so why bother.

Tholi
17 Dec 2009 09:37

Shame so sad Manto passed on, even though some people r happy that she's gone.

Tholi
17 Dec 2009 09:44

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=125&art_id=vn20091217043448578C738560

some comments from IOL readers

15 Minutes ago eric hartmann wrote :
im just curious why the health minister chose a private hospital over a govt ... is it because her inefficient policies totally wrecked the govt health system , or is it because she was a member of the ruling elite who live a totally different life to those they are meant to represent ?

may the aids sufferers who died before her ,,, because of her ,,, welcome her into heaven

30 Minutes ago Anonymous wrote :
im black, ANC but i still blame her and Thabo Mbeki for unnecessarry Aids Deaths. Well, to her she was doing the best for the country, but it resulted in a genocide. May our Good Lord be with her. She deserves a hero's send off, despite her mistakes. We are human, we make mistakes and she is no exception.

36 Minutes ago Durban wrote :
Let her ignorance rest in piece. Now when Charles Nqakula dies, it will be a day of great celebration.

38 Minutes ago Richard wrote :
If Manto thought things couldn't have ever been HOTTER for her than her days as Health Minister she must be shocked right now!

46 Minutes ago DidiM wrote :
Its unfortunate that people can be like this, very sad indeed. But lets not forget, we are going to die too. So lets be kind. Some of u here are drunken drivers and Aids victims, which ever death maybe chosen for you. Death is Inevitable.
May Manto Mosimang Rest In Peace

49 Minutes ago Anonymous wrote :
She did NOTHING of her own initiative for her country!! There are tooooo many people dying of AIDS daily to prove of her gross negligence and total self absorbtion and lack of care and consideration for the people that she was elected to care for!!

Soooo glad that another liver was not wasted on her ..... good ridance.......

50 Minutes ago Mike Botha wrote :
What a wonderful gift on Reconciliation Day. Let's mourn the people who died because of her ignorance and be thankful that not another liver is wasted.

TJO!!! IT so saaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad!!!!

maddie
17 Dec 2009 10:10

tjo, hai guys these people r insensitive who r we to judge?

cleve
17 Dec 2009 10:32

tjo, hai guys these people r insensitive who r we to judge?

exactly maddie as if thina we are saints........... People are just idiotic and insensitive

makgotso
17 Dec 2009 11:06

Cha abananenhliziyo lababantu,this is inhuman tjo...

Tholi
17 Dec 2009 11:08

Eish kunzima, shame i feel sorry for her family. may she RIP

mathata
17 Dec 2009 11:44

home fabulous!

im happy his DEAD with capital D,i hope her friends n family will put garlic in her coffin as she always wish for other familys,and 24 under her wig .

MANTO.....tswana words.......tlhotsa pele ga se swa pele.

im sure those ppl who lost their souls they are waiting for her to say halllllla!

(GOD)Mama hell gate or my gate?
(manto)let me call Taboooo first,God do you have garlic,nandos n 1958 whisk?
GoD:maybe hell's gate have nandos.

Tholi
17 Dec 2009 12:07

Wow Mathata!!

More comments from IOL!
36 Minutes ago Anonymous wrote :
Hi,
Mrs Msimang was someones daughter, sister, aunt niece, wife, mother, friend etc. The pain of losing a loved is the same even if they were MP's. My prayers are with her family relatives and friends at this time of mourning. Let us be kind enough to say words to comfort them. Who are we to Judge her?
Dudu Sokhela

2 Hours ago Anonymous wrote :
maybe she should have eaten more beetroots...

2 Hours ago Mahlomola Jacob Raboroko wrote :
This unfortunate incident of passing away of the former health minister should be a lesson to South African media ,while Manto was fighting for her life they saw it as another story to sell to make profit at the expense of other people's problems .I really appreciate the role that manto played on South African politics and particularly positive role ,i think this should be how we should remember her that way

maddie
17 Dec 2009 12:09

@mathata

only God knows, and am sure God will judge these pharmaceutical companies minting money out of poor developing countries for ARVS when maybe and just ,maybe there's a cure for HIV, but hey profits first and LIKE I SAID ONLY GOD KNOWS THERE ARE MORE BAD PEOPLE IN THIS HIV SAGA THAN MANTO

blackstar
17 Dec 2009 12:09

guys it's really sad that people would behave like this when someone has died, it shows that humanity is gone.

we need to understand that Manto never made those policies alone it was the ruling party's effort ,to be exact the portfolio committee of health that was working under Manto's time. people dont sleep and wake and say this is the policy we going to adopt, it's a group effort. so to blame Manto alone is not fair, she has to bear the cross for everyone involved.

i cant believe that people still bring the garlic issue up, reality is Manto was qouted out of context and we have our media to thank for that... we know that we need nutritions, vitamins and other suppliments on our bodies to survive and Manto was merely suggesting the things that she thought our society could afford.

she may have not been done the best for the country her family doesnt need the stress and humiliation that people are giving to them.

may her soul RIP

mathata
17 Dec 2009 12:37

at this moment i dont care she rest in P or what.

she should known better,she came to canada n display garlic in SA table , what was the meaning of that....stupidity or humilating.

when you say you are M health that means you take responsibity of S africans health .

what is the meaning of 300 cd4 count?you are nearly dead.

they risk with ppl health,they dont care abt S africans,aslong they F*** our tax they care less.

so i care less too.

MsDee
17 Dec 2009 13:25

someday someday mark my words this whole Manto, Mbekhi ARV"s story will come out in the open fully...some people will have to swallow their words...surely people should know by now how media can sensational any story, how at times they pick just 1, 1 statement from 2 hour speech & stretch, exaggerate & sensational. I’m mean even as a blogger surely most of us have experienced that where someone totally misreads your statement and writes a whole 3 paragraphs that’s so off the mark and as a result few gets so excited… and you wonder!!! Just mark my words...

mathata
17 Dec 2009 13:42

what goes around comes around.

fruity
17 Dec 2009 14:31

There way people talk it is like Manto infected those people with Aids herself. We all know of the consequences of having unprotected sex but to blame one person for your actions is just so not on.

People should start being more responsible, I have lost close family members to AIDS/HIV but I will never blame Manto for their death. They made their decisions and had to live with the consequences. LET US ALL START BEING MORE RESPONSIBLE

MsDee
17 Dec 2009 14:41

@Mathata<what goes around comes around> If you talking about death...really now..its everyone's destination...we all living to die!!! unless i'm misunderstanding you totally!!!

mathata
17 Dec 2009 15:15

you misunderstood me,im talking about morals n values n how far you can fight for you country,all of us our graves are waiting for us.

If a person say im Min of .....you must protect ppl nomatter what.

@fruity,she did not infect any body,but how can you take selfish decession for you r ppl,she failed to put ppl needs first on the table.

tell me which country in the world give ARV to ppl in 300cd4?in SA, dont you think is disgusting,dont you think is unfair to see ppl soul going down like icing sugar,do you think is fair for ppl to get weak until they kiss their coffin to get help?is f** b*s*.(dont bother to respond)

if i have to slap her lolli pop lips in a coffin i will do so,just to talk abt her im pissed
We all know of the consequeces of having unprotectedsex,i think you will be the right candidate to tell the rapist that.

Tholi
17 Dec 2009 15:27

Tjo Mathata u r so angry with her. and i understand, i have lost some family members because of her and Mbheki's denial. but because she's gone now. i think its time for us to 4GIVE and 4GET! So she can Rest in Peace!! we black peeps know how hard it is to loose a person, eeven if its Manto but its so sad.

maddie
17 Dec 2009 15:36

@tholi
i have lost some family members because of her and Mbheki's denial

u lost family members because of your family member's irresponsibility unless if they were infected through rape/otherwise.

i've lost close family members to HIV as well but to put the blame enitrely on Manto and Mbeki is totally unfair

mathata
17 Dec 2009 15:50

i will forgive n forget if her hubby can bring our tax money that we paid for her salary.

this ppl once they get power we kiss their damn ass,esp black pll.

what make me sick is that this HIV ppl 80% of them they cant afford medication ,its painful for some one to pray to get sick so they can get help,some they dont even see 300cd4 count only in heaven.

in the world SA is the worst country were we pay too much TAX,but ppl dies,every country has this crisis but they handle it well.

white ppl ,promise is promise,blacks....espensive clothing n cars,whisk,in fact lavish life,they dont care.

mathata
17 Dec 2009 16:15

@maddie,if you are principaal of school n you tell them lunch start from 14h00 do you think is fair?

yes they are wrong they didnt eat their B-fast but as Principaal what is your responsibility as a leader?

you earn as a leader what do you bring on atable?

YES for South africans HIV is like you buying it like candy at shoprite.let it be

maddie
18 Dec 2009 10:02

@mathata

did u vote for the ANC sweety? I know ur vote is ur secret but am just asking cos most people vote for the ANC and come back and cry foul

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